Vaccination Part 1 : A call for Pro-truth to replace Pro-Vax v Anti-Vax

Viral Vaccination Post

I shared some thoughts on Facebook last night and had my first taste after years as an active social media user of ‘going viral’. As I write there have been 1,463 shares and 1310 likes.

The subject was vaccination. It can be a viral subject, but it can be very ugly too, generally with discussion strings getting quite insulting and with most participants either pro-vax, or anti-vax and with the people in between keeping out of the line of fire.

NoJab

My Vaccination Position : Pro-Truth

My position on vaccination is pro-data, and pro-truth.

Vaccination is not an issue that is purely black or white.

The subject in my experience get lots of misinformation pumped in from both sides of the argument.

It is a subject to which I bring quite deep industry experience having worked as a senior commercial executive in medical science for 12 years and in other sciences for another three. I’ve been involved in TGA and FDA approval processes, clinical trials, medical manufacture, medical product R&D, and in commercial relationships with universities.

I am in favour of vaccines for certain diseases, and where the vaccine product has been well designed, and has good safety profiles.

Epidemiology is an absolutely essential field and some management of the risk of epidemics is not only responsible, but an essential function of public health. Humankind has made the progress it has in eradicating many diseases because of the science of epidemiology.

The key point here is science.

One of the key things to know about science today is that there is increasingly less and less science that is untainted by commercial drivers. In fact our governments encourage the presence of commercial participants and funders in most forms of science grants as a demonstration that the science can develop commercial outcomes which are generally presumed to be ‘good for business’ and therefore the economy. The trouble is, commercial participants generally want to influence study design and the way the studies or trials are reviewed and analysed. Even good science is grey and there are always issues of outliers, specificity, and sensitivity and with commercial parties at the table they do have an influence in how these are dealt with.

Even absent specific studies, most University Professors have consulting contracts with commercial parties, from which they personally benefit, and this can have an effect anywhere from emotional commitment through to (in rare circumstances) fraud for personal gain. My feeling is most university professors strive for the high ground, but with a commercial party at the table there will always be an influence and then the reader doesn’t know what they don’t know about how much the study has been impacted.

It is an absolute fact that you can’t say every vaccine is both safe and well designed to be effective.

The Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting systems exist because side effects are an unavoidable part of injecting products into a diverse population of individuals. Furthermore they have to deal with the fact that the agents injected travel all through the body, and absent clever nano-delivery mechanisms can’t just go where they need to in order to achieve the desired result and stay out of all of the other bodily systems. If you are in doubt about the reality of side effects in medicine read a package insert in a drug or vaccine packet.

Through an old colleague I came to know a number of people in the HPV (Human Papaloma Virus) world. My old colleague is a scientist who took the CEO/Business path and counts as friends many of the HPV opinion leaders in the US. He will not have his daughter immunised for HPV because he believes it is poorly designed because it doesn’t address all the species of HPV. That omission changes the landscape for infection, but does not eradicate the disease and his position is that doing so is irresponsible and creates a false sense of safety in the patient, and in turn a complacency about managing ongoing risks in a disease that needs monitoring. People may disagree with his position, but it is one based on his reading of the complexity of the issue and is an example that it is not black and white, and that not all objectors are ill-informed.

The problem is now the journey the whole vaccination issue has taken. It began with more people making the conscious decision not to have their children or sometimes themselves vaccinated.  The Pro-Vax lobby argue this was all driven by the Andrew Wakefield study (a study withdrawn by the Publisher over which there are now doubts) tying vaccination and autism together, and there is no doubt that was a big part of the trend.  That said, it’s discrediting does not remove the issue that side effects are a real issue as outlined above and people have good reason to pause and consider vaccination decisions. The issue is the anti-vax trend attracted some people that made it black and white and painted all vaccines as bad. This aligned the interests of the now worried Public Health Officials charged with managing Epidemiology and those of the Vaccine companies worried about loss of revenues.

Murdoch Media No Jab No Play and No Jab No Pay Campaigns

This brings me to ‘No Jab No Play’ and No Jab No Pay’.

The No Jab No Play campaign was initiated by the Murdoch Daily Telegraph on May 5th 2013 in this article. Yes, a newspaper whose function I understand to be reporting news, not initiating campaigns.

James Murdoch the son of the Daily Telegraph’s publisher Rupert Murdoch of News Corporation was also a Director of Glaxo Smith Kline one of the largest vaccine manufacturers in the world, with his appointment announced on February 3 2009. He decided not to stand for re-election as a Director in 2012, that’s the public story, as reported in this Huffington Post story.

One could wonder why a drug and vaccine company needed the skills of a media expert on its board. Clearly they have felt threatened by the trend of more people questioning vaccines.

By 2012 my assessment is that GSK and the industry’s media strategy had been born, now it would serve GSK better if Murdoch was not tied to them, ‘Plausible Deniability’ they call it in the game.

The mood has definitely altered on the issue in Australia and there is now a vehement element of the public who have taken as granted the Murdoch Campaign’s one sided painting of vaccines as free from risk and the only responsible decision for every disease for every person.

The Murdochs were successful in having NSW State Law passed on the strength of supposed public support that had to a large degree been manufactured by the Murdoch Press for ‘No Jab No Play’. Under this law children could not be enrolled in Preschools if they had not been vaccinated.

Now our Prime Minister Tony Abbott has announced a policy that parents receiving social security benefits for their children will only receive it if their children have been vaccinated in accordance with the recommended public health recommendations (‘No Jab No Pay’).

Movement into mandating vaccination and taking away parental rights to make a decision considering the welfare of their child is a worrying step. Vaccination is not black and white and parents do have the right to weigh up evidence. Its not only a right it’s a responsibility, because not all vaccines are good products and vaccine approvals focus mainly on safety profiles, and set relatively low bars for issues like product efficacy. HPV is the perfect case in point, as I outlined above.

Our Prime Minister has delivered to the Murdoch campaign and to the Vaccine companies a windfall revenue outcome by creating a massive financial incentive for a significant part of the population to comply with policy.

Those in the GSK and other Vaccine company boardrooms will be congratulating themselves and without question increasing forecasted revenues.

Public Policy

From the reactions to my Facebook post today, there are a lot of people who value a voice that recognises vaccinations is not a black and white issue.

It should be driven by careful consideration of good untainted science, and we need more of that rare commodity.

Public Policy is not something that should be driven by Drug Company and Newspaper PR campaigns. Very few people have joined the dots between the Daily Telegraph campaign, the Murdochs, and GSK and the Industry.

This whole situation has been an over-reaction to an over-reaction and its time we as people all came to the middle ground and demanded good policy of our leaders and public health officials, in place of propaganda.

The emerging culture with the government and drug companies over-reacting has been to come (at least publicly) from a place of denial sweeping the genuine issues under the carpet. There are already too many strong commercial drivers that create that behaviour, we don’t need it from our regulators. We need a commitment to analyse side effects properly and to drive the creation of safer and more efficacious products.

Join me in the middle ground and look for the truth, not propaganda or anti-propaganda from one side or the other.

The Value of a Rational Voice

The biggest take home message for me today was how much people valued hearing a rational voice coming from a middle ground.

For those interested in the issue I can tell you that people are tired of the debates being wars. Every share in essence was applauding the taking of a balanced position.

In listening to the arguments and concerns of both sides, I was heard by both sides and I saw movement in the positions of people on both sides. There was almost no flaming or debates on my post or those I saw on other’s shares.

To my eyes there is a lesson in that for those who seek to have influence in the world.

People feel truth and sincerity, and there is a trust built when we show a commitment to truth no matter how it falls.  When we have dug ourselves into a foxhole defending a philosophical position, we engender suspicion more than trust. At an intuitive level most people know these issues are not black and white.

Ura P Auckland
Social Entrepreneur and Business Coach
Managing Director
Authegrity Pty Ltd

Micro-sites

PLEASE NOTE BLOG COMMENTING POLICY

Image Attributions:

  1. ‘Screenshot of Viral Facebook Post’ by Ura P Auckland

 

Index to Vaccination Blogs:

  1. Vaccination Part 1 : A call for Pro-truth to replace Pro-Vax v Anti-Vax
  2. Vaccination Part 2 : Commercial Motives in Science and Medicine
  3. Vaccination Part 3 : Vaccine Injury, a rare glimpse of the tip of the iceberg
  4. Vaccination Part 4 : The ‘Science Says’ Myth

38 comments

  1. I was quite disappointed to read you blog that you titled “Pro-Truth”.

    You started out with a clear, sound discussion on vaccinations. You made a number of very finite points, that I fully agree with. Making a choice through proper research. Evaluate each vaccine individually, and not all at once.

    But why, oh why did you have to then delve into a conspiracy theory? Murdoch, GSK, NewsCorp & the government all being in bed together. With no evidence to substantiate your claim. What happened to proper research?

    The requirement for a child to be vaccinated to attend a childcare centre was introduced in line with the child care Benefit in September 2012, six months before the NewsCorp campaign started. This failing of your “research” to identify that NewsCorp picked up on existing legislation invalidates your entire conspiracy.

    What started out as a clear and rational comment left me feeling very disappointed. I am also Pro-Truth. I believe that vaccines save lives, because the science supports that. I also believe that there is more that we can do to make vaccines safer and more effective, again because the science supports that. But as such I feel that you could have done “our” cause so much more, by not delving into conspiracies.

    • Dear Graeme,

      There is a serious flaw in your reason to find disappointment in my blog.

      You suggest that because the beginnings of the No Jab No Play tying of the Childcare Benefit to vaccination predated the public campaign by six months that ipso facto there was no Murdoch influence.

      The purpose of the campaign is not to influence politicians, it is to manufacture public consent. The Murdoch’s access to politicians is well documented and undeniable. The signs of long term cooperation between the politicians and the creators of the campaign are very clear in the campaign propaganda.

      You use the term ‘Conspiracy Theory’. That is a term coined by the corrupt to label people who see their corruption as ‘unbalanced’ or ‘crazy’. Surely you don’t truly believe that there are no business leaders who seek to influence politics for their benefit, or that corruption is rare in business or politics?

      As to proper research, I provided the link establishing that Murdoch was a Director of GSK.

      I note that the Newspaper Campaigns by the Murdochs made none of the customary acknowledgments in credible publications of ‘publisher’s conflicts’. Why not? Why was it only a Murdoch newspaper adopting a campaign? Why was a newspaper creating a campaign instead of reporting news and taking a balanced position on an issue that is not black and white?

      I will leave it to each individual reader to decide what they believe about the extent of Murdoch’s involvement. The need though is for credible people to point out what the Murdoch’s did not, their vested interests. Readers can then ask themselves whether they should trust politicians who announce new policy using the titles of the public campaigns of the vested interests.

      Consciously…..Ura

  2. Time in my life is a precious thing, as is inner peace.

    I have decided to implement a policy on my blog after striking some of the usual aggression and insulting energy so common on vaccination threads in the comments this week.

    My policy now is as follows:
    – Any opinion is welcome if it is expressed respectfully with a genuine intent to inform
    – Any post which is sarcastic, insulting, or which in my opinion as the owner of this blog goes out of the way to misunderstand will be deleted, as will any previous comments in a string.
    – Posts from persons who do not use full names, and whose profiles give no clue as to whether there is a real person behind the post will if they are by my judgement potentially mischievous be deleted. My legal name is the one I use in all forms of social media and I put my professional reputation on the line. I have respect for those who stand behind their opinions. I am very aware that there are issues with vested interests that use fake personas.
    – I have limited hours in a day and responding to comments is not something I can commit extensive time to. If I feel a commenter has touched on an important issue, I will respond in the string or possibly blog on the subject, but please don’t feel insulted if I am not able to get back to you with a response.

    I will always endeavour in my blogs to be conscious and kind and extend respect. I am genuinely interested in interactions with others who communicate that way irrespective of their opinion.

    You can find me on LinkedIn if you have an interest to make contact after reading any of my blogs for a positive interaction.

    Consciously……Ura

  3. Hi elenorjean, it is not my business coaching experience I have drawn from. I have drawn from 7 years as a senior executive in an international medical diagnostics company, 5 years as a senior executive in an international medical devices company and another 4 years as a senior executive and contract executive in other sciences.

    If you have concerns about factual accuracy you are welcome to name them, but I can tell you I don’t state things that I have not come to have high confidence in from personal experience.

  4. thank you for this post. i am pro choice. i am vaccinated with unproven but suspected damage my children are not. no choice means no hope.

  5. Thank you Sir. Finding some middle ground is critical to asking the right questions. Not pro or anti Vax myself, but determined to be free to ask questions.

  6. Many thanks for posting this Ura. For I have been witnessing hysteria when I had expected cool, balanced thought, as parents reacted to the idea promulgated by the media that anti-vaxxers are belligerent conspiracy theorists selfishly threatening public health, and in so doing these parents have shown willingness to condone if not support a Hockey stick style of governance, failing to notice that those with political power are invariably in the service of powerful corporations, and not us. This, from quarters usually fiercely critical of the current regime.

  7. This is brilliant. Thank you for so eloquently and intelligently expressing what so many of us feel about this issue. I am quickly labelled an ‘anti-vaxxer’ whenever I discuss this issue with people, but I am not per se ‘anti vaccines’. After a reasonable amount of reading, there are too many things that don’t add up for me, and don’t sit comfortably. I consider myself a ‘vax-questioner’, but am rarely able to have intelligent discussion with people about vaccinations, their efficacy and more so, their history. (key word being ‘discussion’).

  8. Hi Ura, any chance you have any links to documentation or academic research articles/papers on the concerns you outlined regarding HPV? Or perhaps some statistical results from studies performed on unvaccinated vs. vaccinated child mortality rates in relevant/equivalent time periods?

  9. The trouble is that every issue doesn’t have a middle ground. There is no middle ground between “climate change is happening” and “climate change is not happening” – science says climate change is happening. There is no middle ground between “the earth is round” and “the earth is flat” – science says the earth is flat.

    There is no middle ground between “vaccines prevent fatal and disabling diseases in children” and “vaccines don’t work”, or between “vaccines are minimally risky compared to their individual and community benefit” and “vaccines are not worth the risk”. Science says that vaccines prevent fatal and disabling diseases, and they are minimally risky. Vaccines save lives, and people who refuse to vaccinate are putting lives at risk. It is black and white.

    As to the method of persuading vaccine refusers, gentle persuasion has not worked to well in recent decades, which is why babies have died from whooping cough and a young woman recently died of DIPTHERIA in Australia. So it is all very well to cry “play nice” – I say “I will play nice when people stop refusing vaccines on the basis of patently false non-research and irrational fears.”

    • Hi Linda, science is never black and white and I know of know of no scientific publication ever that has formed the conclusions you have quoted in sciences name. If you can find one and repost it here I would be all ears.

      It’s about more than middle ground, it’s about examining the subject considering all the evidence. There is too much selective quotation on both sides. The risks vary by vaccine, but we need to consider all side effects as serious and worthy of focus to improve vaccines.

      The debate and now public policy decisions at a political level
      are being dominated by propaganda, not data and genuine attempts to reach the truth. That is the essence of the concern I am expressing.

      • I hear you Ura, but do you realise your position is actually pro-vax? You accept the science of epidemiology, while recognising that there are flaws from time to time. Anti-Vax people argue that vaccination doesn’t work, that all vaccines contain poisons, that vaccination successes in history are false (by cherry picking dates on graphs).

        From the nature of the vax debates I have been involved in you are decidedly pro-vaccination.

  10. Thankyou for a great article. TRUTH is what we need not propaganda or stretched truths from either side. We made the very difficult decision not to vaccinate at all, however it was not made lightly or easily nor would I say I am anti-vaccinations. We did as much research as we could but were very frustrated with the lack of honest, unbiased, factual information. My big issue is how far do u go, with new vaccines being produced all the time & researched for every thing possible where do we stop? Who decides which ones become compulsory? The focus turns to one of our bodies being inherently flawed & fear of that plus a licence to fill our bodies with endless toxins which make us sick, rather than our bodies being designed with the capacity to heal & filling our bodies with that which is good & healing from the natural environment. I’m not saying we don’t need modern medicine but we have also been given so much in our natural environment to heal our sick bodies but pharmaceutical companies can’t patent them & thus don’t produce them the $$$. I am horrified that the government intends on taking away our choice, tho I understand the fear & reasoning from the pro vaccinators’, not everyone is well & fully informed & it’s not a black & white issue as the pros try to lead us to believe & as you have well pointed out.

  11. This applies to the forced fluoridation disgrace also:-

    Australian Government is a Tyrannical Government even becoming worse than the USA.

    If a mad with power and control Government over the population is allowed to continue – they will NEVER be stopped with anything else – a tyrannical Australian Government even stopped our health rights freedoms and our individual rights to informed consent to treatment and our individual rights to refuse treatment – it does not get much worse than this people – the bastards all through Australian politics are all the same – a threat to us all in every respect.

    SAY NO TO GOVERNMENT / MEDICAL ASSOCIATION
    FORCED VACCINATIONS / EXTORTION / BLACKMAIL /RANSOM
    GUNPOINT MEDICINE PLAYING VACCINATION RUSSIAN ROULETTE

    SIGN PETITION TO PROTECT YOUR FREEDOM IN AUSTRALIA WHICH IS FAST BECOMING A TYRANNICAL DICTATORSHIP
    If anyone is foolish enough to trust the American Government and our Australian Government with this you are sheep to the slaughter – all evidence of harm has always been covered up and a compliant controlled media is the government’s and big pharma’s mouthpiece – the Australian media have sock puppets not investigative journalists.

    GO TO THIS POLL AND VOTE NO http://www.abc.net.au/news/thedrum/polls/
    or you will have sealed the fate of more of our population to not only have differing levels of vaccine induced brain injury and our rights and health rights choices and our rights to choose what medical treatment we have will be under the control of the government and their interests. Political donations control governments and ‘agendas’.
    You would know the high levels of corruption in American government and the ICAC investigates the high levels of corruption polluting Australian politics.
    The reason more are refusing vaccinations is because they are independently researching and finding out exactly what is in them and the damage on different levels being done to ‘brains’.
    GUNPOINT MEDICINE is not okay in any country.

    remember to also sign petition
    https://www.change.org/p/minister-scott-morrison-don-t-punish-parents-for-making-an-informed-choice-about-their-children-s-health-all-parents-deserve-to-make-an-uncoerced-choice?

    We call on all Australians who have done their own research and found that vaccinations are anything but safe and effective and calling on those who haven’t done their own research to sign also because we have done the research for you and we have no political agenda or ‘conflicts of interests’.

    There is nothing funny about toxic, neurotoxic and carcinogenic ‘ingredients’ being injected into us and especially our babies.  There are many who are suffering brain damaging vaccination injury and countless who have died from such vaccine brain injury.  

    Medical ethics must always honour an Individual Rights to Informed Consent to Treatment and individual rights to Refuse Treatment –  also the ‘herd immunity’ theory is based on flawed theory   and I personally know people who were vaccinated against whooping cough and got shocking dose of it.

    INDIVIDUAL rights to informed consent to treatment and individual rights to refuse treatment.

    So many people are ignorant and clueless about the dangerous neurotoxins (and carcinogens) contained in vaccines of this ma$$ive billion dollar indu$try.
    WAKE UP PEOPLE – THE AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT AND THEIR INTERESTS CANNOT BE TRUSTED – VACCINATIONS ARE NOT SAFE AND NOT EFFECTIVE AND MUST NOT BE FORCED ON ANYONE OR WELFARE PAYMENTS STOPPED IF PARENTS REFUSE TO ‘PLAY VACCINATION RUSSIAN ROULETTE’.

  12. Reblogged this on dianedraytonbuckland and commented:

    This applies to the forced fluoridation disgrace also:-
    Australian Government is a Tyrannical Government even becoming worse than the USA.
    If a mad with power and control Government over the population is allowed to continue – they will NEVER be stopped with anything else – a tyrannical Australian Government even stopped our health rights freedoms and our individual rights to informed consent to treatment and our individual rights to refuse treatment – it does not get much worse than this people – the bastards all through Australian politics are all the same – a threat to us all in every respect.

    SAY NO TO GOVERNMENT / MEDICAL ASSOCIATION
    FORCED VACCINATIONS / EXTORTION / BLACKMAIL /RANSOM
    GUNPOINT MEDICINE PLAYING VACCINATION RUSSIAN ROULETTE

    SIGN PETITION TO PROTECT YOUR FREEDOM IN AUSTRALIA WHICH IS FAST BECOMING A TYRANNICAL DICTATORSHIP
    If anyone is foolish enough to trust the American Government and our Australian Government with this you are sheep to the slaughter – all evidence of harm has always been covered up and a compliant controlled media is the government’s and big pharma’s mouthpiece – the Australian media have sock puppets not investigative journalists.
    GO TO THIS POLL AND VOTE NO http://www.abc.net.au/news/thedrum/polls/
    or you will have sealed the fate of more of our population to not only have differing levels of vaccine induced brain injury and our rights and health rights choices and our rights to choose what medical treatment we have will be under the control of the government and their interests. Political donations control governments and ‘agendas’.
    You would know the high levels of corruption in American government and the ICAC investigates the high levels of corruption polluting Australian politics.
    The reason more are refusing vaccinations is because they are independently researching and finding out exactly what is in them and the damage on different levels being done to ‘brains’.
    GUNPOINT MEDICINE is not okay in any country.

    remember to also sign petition
    https://www.change.org/p/minister-scott-morrison-don-t-punish-parents-for-making-an-informed-choice-about-their-children-s-health-all-parents-deserve-to-make-an-uncoerced-choice?

    We call on all Australians who have done their own research and found that vaccinations are anything but safe and effective and calling on those who haven’t done their own research to sign also because we have done the research for you and we have no political agenda or ‘conflicts of interests’.

    There is nothing funny about toxic, neurotoxic and carcinogenic ‘ingredients’ being injected into us and especially our babies.  There are many who are suffering brain damaging vaccination injury and countless who have died from such vaccine brain injury.   Medical ethics must always honour an Individual Rights to Informed Consent to Treatment and individual rights to Refuse Treatment –  also the ‘herd immunity’ theory is based on flawed theory   and I personally know people who were vaccinated against whooping cough and got shocking dose of it. INDIVIDUAL rights to informed consent to treatment and individual rights to refuse treatment. So many people are ignorant and clueless about the dangerous neurotoxins (and carcinogens) contained in vaccines of this ma$$ive billion dollar indu$try. WAKE UP PEOPLE – THE AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT AND THEIR INTERESTS CANNOT BE TRUSTED – VACCINATIONS ARE NOT SAFE AND NOT EFFECTIVE AND MUST NOT BE FORCED ON ANYONE OR WELFARE PAYMENTS STOPPED IF PARENTS REFUSE TO ‘PLAY VACCINATION RUSSIAN ROULETTE’.

  13. Thanks so much for your post. It is a sane and rational piece. My sisters daughter nearly died after the triple antigen vaccination caused TENS/Steven Johnson Syndrome at 18 months. She is now legally blind plus god knows what other issues that are yet to crop up. My sister is firmly in your camp and had another child on the way forcing her to explore this, rationally, so hard to do with all the scaring and hating… again thanks, keep education the mass like me that are unscientific but believe in informed choice, whatever that choice may turn out to be.

  14. Thanks for this Ura. You might like to check out Andrew Wakefield’s book “Callous Disregard” if you are interested in truth. There is another scenario, when a government indemnifies a vaccine because the makers have already had to withdraw it from 2 other countries and refuse to indemnify it themselves.

  15. Australian politician have adopted the “nanny reflex” ..…. slowly killing the Australian entrepreneurial spirit…… allowing an army of costly bureaucrats to enforce silly rules.
    With falling government revenue the nanny state should become a casualty.

  16. Reblogged this on Aussie Justice and commented:
    Freedom of hoice is something that should not be removed from parents. If the Government is making or coercing parents into doing what they do not agree with this is not consent. I have not heard from the government on where they stand on children who have adverse reactions that are forced to have injections because they do not currently have a medical exemption or a religious one, especially since it is only 1 religious group that had previously applied for this… Big guess on which one that may be?

  17. There’s a key piece of this we need to join the dots on. The very small opportunity presented by the removal of this payment to vaccine manufacturers is not worth much. However, setting up a fervour to get support behind the whole of life vaccine programme for the country has the potential to increase revenues by tenfold and more. Join the next dot and be afraid. Very afraid.

  18. Thank you for your calm and clear invitation to join you on the Middle path, I’m with you. This is but one of many issues we face as we move forward in our evolution as a society, where the polarisation is only causing more suffering. Let’s take our next steps intelligently….

  19. As a parent who is trying to find out more, can you help by saying which vaccines, in your experience as an “inside person” are the ones you are in favour of? In your words “has been well designed, and has good safety profiles.”
    I think my problem, like many parents, is the fear of possible detrimental effects leading to mistrust of ALL vaccines. Hope you can help. Thanks.

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